The post received considerable response some encouraging, some amazed and one that took the bull by the tail. Though Saurav tried his best to respond politely without giving in, the dude kept on with his rhetoric.
At first I felt that I should give this guy a peice of my mind, but when I discussed this with Saurav, I felt it waas best that saurav took care of this himself… But I had an opinion which needed to be told and hence I commented once I saw that the dust had settled. This guy comes back and replies to my comment.
Surely I couldn’t keep myself from replying, but half way through my reply which was already a page & half, and full of things that may not go down well with a few, I thought if this debate needs to carry on, it should do here, on my space not Saurav’s because a.) he doesn’t quite digg such confrontations and b.) he is fun guy whose better of discussing his bullshit.
And hence this post to set stage for the below text that is my comment.
I have resisted responding to you since long as I didn’t wanna upset my fun loving friend, who very well knows what a vociferous individual I am, with my own opinions; for a simple reason that he had attempted to tell us, his friends that see here is great community with a rich culture (not that other communities have a less rich culture) and only because of some misguided souls the entire community is being cornered to the wall with an eyes of suspicion. It’s like saying because there are a few bad apples, apples needs to be wiped from the face the earth, at that point he made a passing reference to certain other groups which we could rightly categorize as equally bad apple; then you come here and tell us otherwise clearly trying to get into fist fight of words or just an attempt to show off your “superior knowledge” on the subject… being faced with smart but subtle replies you resorted to cheap moves like referring your past experiences, which only you know best yourself is true or not (Come on do you expect us to believe some of that stuff like the guy who said “I wish I was in Pakistan” OR even your scholarship, dude refer me to those guys, they should sponsor my education, considering I’m a catholic… Oh I really liked the part where you landed for mass and even went to the Gurudwara. All Religious places have an out of the world thing and therefore you not only have to be physically present there but also spiritually to claim to be there.)
Let me address the points you have raised
“Hindu Rashtra – what is wrong?” — Everything about it is wrong my friends. It takes more than Gods blessings to run a nation, a sound understanding of foreign affair and economics to name a two. Its takes more preparation for things like the recent signing of the N Deal then consulting the stars, or sprinkling holy water or even reciting verses of the Quran. (No offense is meant to any religion, only trying to make a point that religious beliefs are best ones private affair or at most amongst other fellow believers, if brought out amongst other citizens it will only create confusion, leading to hatred and even violence, that until we learn lessons of tolerance.)
“I’d like to remind the enlightened Alex that ‘Word of God’ has been long listed in the Vedas (6000 years before Jesus was even recorded in history). Incidentally, it helps that the Vedas are perceived to be casteist.” — please note that Christianity according to our scriptures never began with Jesus Christ, it was there since dawn of man kind the building of earth in six days, and Adam being created, followed by Eve. My friend there is no point arguing who came first and what is true religion because none of us has a time machine to go back and verify for ourselves. Further it can always be argued that the Theory Evolution states otherwise to what the old testament says abt the world being created in six days or even any other scriptures state about how the world came into being and further this can be counter argued that time is a relative thing what may have seemed like six days to God, may be millions of years of evolution. The point that I make is, religious debate at our level is futile, where we will be just moving around in circles; Losing the essence of our religions and beliefs which we have held on to inspite of some much exposure to science which has told us otherwise on every step, all because we need a higher power that we can fall on in times of crisis (remember the saying that goes something like where science stops, prayers starts it’s work).
“How much of history have you read apart from that listed in our warped textbooks? History has been moulded brilliantly to reflect modern day political compulsions. Hats off to the genius that accomplished. My sorrow for the people that bought it.” — Thank you for acknowledging the fact that I’m a genius. The only education I am proud of is the lesson which taught me to question, taught me that what was being taught was someone subject views, and I have a right to differ as long as I have seen all available aspects of the topic.
“As for the casteist system – blame the interpreters of the system and not the system. It’s like saying India is stupid; whereas Indians allowed themselves to be exploited.” — I was referencing to an ancient time caste system which had the Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaishas and Shudras… I understand that till here everything was fine and it was just about setting a social order for smooth functioning; but the problem came when few selfish men started their own belief of caste is something you need to be born in (I believe hymns from the Rig Veda suggest that caste is not decided by birth)… Then there were individuals who went past this belief and has inter caste marriages, they began to be called chandalas, I believe they formed most of the dalit community being ousted for disobeying this hierarchy that didn’t give them breathing space. Now in Free India, they had a right to choose and they choose religions that didn’t discriminate like Buddhism and Christianity; Mind you this was the very learned Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkars idea and a great one that I salute. My point was just to remind you great people like Dr. Ambedkar could never have been enticed by your alledged means of conversion, they have a mind and are very capable of Making an informed decision. I know this family which lives in a hut next to my chawl, they have received a lot of help from our church, which has lead the man of this house hold the quit drinking, and start up a business of selling peanuts in the market, his daughter goes to a decent school now (not the municipal school) they even received ration when this guy was ill; and he didn’t have to convert and hasn’t converted. Why go that far to my neighbours, my family is an example, my grandfathers and great grandfathers never received any monetory gains from accepting Christianity in place of Hinduism, that they were born in. Look what I have done, gone into a debate on the caste system and religion which are like a black hole, a call to go around in circles, I feel sorry for mentioning it especially when my initial point was to let you know there are more reasons for conversion, than just cheap enticement. Further just for argument sake I allege that groups like the bajrang dal are the one doing the forcefully conversion (reconversion) or what they call shudi; after all they are the ones with the weapons.
“Aryans did not impose the caste system on the Dravidas. It well existed before the Aryans.” — Dude seriously, where did you, get this from. It has always been the Aryans who have tried to preach supremacy of theirs over others, take the e.g. of Hitler. And now don’t tell me Hitler is out of context, Aryans have come from the north (Europe). But Arguing about these without us being history scholars is quite childish.
“India minus Gandhi and Nehru would have long been a country with striking force and capability… if it weren’t for Gandhi or Nehru, India would very much be a developed nation and not a developing nation.” — Though I am not one that full agrees with what Gandhi has done… I still feel that if Gandhi would have pushed for Vallabbhai Patel to be PM instead of Mr. Nehru… things could have been different. But that said I don’t believe that a single mistake is bigger than all the right that one has done through out his life. There are a few things that we may not like these leaders but we have no right to belittle them and irresponsibly say that things would have been better… who is to say that neither I nor you have lived in those times or faced the compulsions that they came across. They made some decisions that didn’t go down well, but should we forget the ones that did. If you want know how developed we would be hadn’t it been for them, just make a list of things they have done and just imagine India without them. To give you a Head Start, 1. Satyagraha preached by Gandhi, how much also u would like to deny, has been India’s advertisement for what kinda Peace loving people they are. 2. The Mixed Economy System, this one you may not know, during the cold war Russia and US were trying to get newly formed nations like ours to follow their styles of economies Communist and Capitalist respectively. But India along with a few others decided to take a new approach with the best of both worlds where you had insulation for the poorest of the poor and also space for free enterprise to flourish.
To sum up… We don’t agree on most things other than the part where you accept I’m a genius, and to prove ourselves we can argue and counter argue leading to nothing other than a bad taste in our mouth, hence I declare that we agree to disagree and end this debate here… if for some reason you feel otherwise and wanna cry about it, I would appreciate you do that here at my space, because I know that Bombi, won’t quite appreciate it cause that’s just beating his purpose for the Blog Post as explained in the start of this comment…
I know I know really long.